This is missing a big, open central area. Wider corridors would have added more to the gameplay, which is quite bland.
PD: This is ACTF29 in the Alliance Mappack 2 (lvlworld.com/review/id:2270)
Edited 35 seconds after the original posting.

I think someone got a poor review... ;)

Carcass,

Many of the most popular web sites require registering in order to post. We will not "suffer" if he makes this change. What's so hard about it? Nothing.

And you are making ad hominem attacks on Tigger by suggesting he's some kind of fraud and making up stories about him. Furthermore, your "review" of his maps hardly warrants serious consideration. They are not "pitiful" as you say. If they are, then I guess this whole site is full of pitiful maps and you'd be better off not coming back, right?

By the way Kiltron. Keep mapping because this map is rad.

You know tigger, your rating is the most worthless in the scene. Registering to post a message. What are you thinking?

Because someone gets a little out of line We have to suffer. I don't read your pitiful reviews. I don't download your pitiful maps. They really are'nt that great. Besides your little groupie following this place is for the mappers that want to be. Make maps and support real quake3 sites. This guy got famous for his Hitler style.

Ban me for freedom of speech.

Gee Kiltron what a firestorm you started, People bannned,critics raving, and band fans voting for the music not the map.

I love a good CTF and this ones pretty good. It looks nice and plays well. The only gripe I have is the placement of the plasma gun. It is to easy to camp on and hose a good part of the flag room with and endless supply of ammo.

All the worry about ads in Quake are fairly groundless in my opinion. We will not be seeing bots with Swooshes on them any time soon. The Rosie O Donnels and the Pat Robionsons of the world will squeeze the Gonads of any major marketeer that attempts it. Heck, I,m amazed that they are not screaming over Sarges cigar. "Hey put that BFG down for a moment. Don't you know that, that cigar could cause mouth cancer? Just what kind of role model do you think you are anyway?"

Quake is high on enough on so many pressure groups "pet brand of sin" list, that no major market will touch it. So, I say all of you who are worryied about the the sellout by mappers, relax and go frag something.

Kiltron, I like your maps and I have been a map player not a maker till now. I'm off to Download Q3 Radient, to build my vision map, LLoyd Webbers "Phantom of the Opera... FFA"

Watch Out for the falling chandilers. :-}

The reasons any of this matters are:

1. Many mappers want a valid form of exposure for their work. Many are serious and are looking for employment in the game industry. It's really frustrating if your map loses exposure to some thoughtless people.

1. The whole thing is less fun with spammers, unless you are a troll yourself.

1. People may miss out on a good map if it is sent to the bottom for no good reason. Let's face it, we can't download everything, so we tend to look for the buzz first to see if its good.

1. It's also a pain for people to spend their download time/money on poor maps that have been sent to the top by a few rabid fans, or biased friends.

You can't make it perfect. But simple steps can be taken to make it more serviceable.

Octovous, everyone:

Good point Octovous.

I think the login system would only be for those that want to vote / post comments. Just like many other web sites already do. I know that Bluesnews, Voodooextreme, and Quake3World do this, just to name a few off the top of my head.

It makes it a little harder to be a spammer, in general. Only the most dedicated spammer would keep re-registering over and over.

Plus I think if you have a login system that verifies that the user has a valid e-mail address, you can make it more of a pain for spammers with dynamic ip's who show up with different names. In combination with the current id system, it'll be easier to identify the spammers and shut them out if they abuse the board.

Also, one thought I had was to log the name of each voter, so that we can reduce voting wars, and expose vote spammers to the admins. Or, maybe we can even have open voting where eveyone can see everyone's vote. If there is a consistent vote spammer, we'll know who they are and discount their votes accordingly. But we wouldn't necessarily have to edit their vote or anything. It's a social "peer pressure" thing.

It's hard to say though, if this will just make them targets for a flame war. On the other hand, if they know that voting in an unreasonable manner (0's for a well done map) or knocking someone down (multiple zero votes or something) will expose them as vote spammers, they might think twice. Also, maybe it will expose whether a map has received 20 votes from friends.

Just a bunch of thouhgts. I'm not saying any of these ideas will definitely work, but its worth thinking about.

Uhm, this map rocks. I give it a 10 why, cause I can. Kiltron you are the man. Take care.

Terribly cool skatepark aesthetic: nice work, Kiltron. From the trim to the eye insignia and the arching lamps, this one is a minimalistic dazzler.

As for the attacks on this level's presumed commercialism: laff! It merely follows in the footsteps of the (rather forgettable) Zoid map that promoted Q3's soundtrack.

Also, as was lamented some while back on the Qboard, this is the age of extreme self-pimpage, so it's rather strange when everyone and his sister releases a map with a blah blah blah@planetquake sign to find this map being singled out for criticism. "Q3a is not a billboard" -- heh, this site didn't exactly use that lofty standard in evaluating pqarena.pk3, did it?

For that matter, Kiltron's boldness in marketing may have some relation to his boldness in design. He was inspired; and lo, the results are inspiring. If more bands could be interested in such projects, perhaps it could lead designers to more stylistic invention, which is something the space and gothic map ghetto could really use.

Actually, I think I'm going to try fragging to 'Nessun Dorma' after all.

Uh in case it isn't clear, by "leave out the voting" I mean make it so you don't have to login for voting, just for comments.

No, I'll be perfectly honest: Britney Spears would be WORSE than Pavarotti. At least I'm not forced to listen to him for five hours (evil sister= britney spears lover) every day. Michael Jackson would just be scary =)

Tig, I'd be totally with the idea of a login system (which isn't to say "Yes, do it, we need it!" but more like "Sure, if it'll get rid of people who spam and shit") but how would it work? Would you just deny people who you think/know would misuse it a login or what, because I don't think they just won't sign up or anything.

Make sure you don't make the login to complicated whatever you do, but leave out the voting if that's possible. That's not where the problem is, it's in the comments section(s).

Map was ok; nothing spectacular.

SCORE:7 (Points deducted for making my ears bleed)

Since Pitchshifter have decided to use Q3 as a media to promote their tracks I expect it won't be long before Britney Spears and Michael Jackson will get in on the action. Just imagine how the intelligently challenged, rather, dumb bots will react to the obvious screeches homeboy will make, I expect some of the bots' heads will explode, others will spontaneously combust, while many may also beg for us humans to blast there ears off to protect them from the horrendous noise pollution. Just lets hope that Pavarotti, Domingo, and Carreras don't decide to include their music to accompany a Q3 level or we'll all have to replace our pc sound systems; can you imagine fragging to 'Nessun Dorma'!

First of all I have to say that Pitchshifter Rocks! Those of you who don't like the song should go listen to the rest of the album Deviant. Secondly I think it is a great map. Well done Kiltron. The map is great for ctf but suprisingly even better for Rocket vs. Rail. Those of you who have never played Rocket vs. Rail should go check it out. www.planetquake.com/rocketvsrail

I'm gonna have to give this map a 10 because Pitchshifter rocks and because the map is just plain fun.

whats better than playing quake 3 and listening to psi at once??? nothing!!! the map fucking kicks ass and so does psi

I HAVE TO SAY THAT THE MAP AND THE MUSIC ARE AWESOME, IT WORKS GREAT TOGETHER. IF YOU HAVE LISTENED TO PITCHSHIFTER AND DONT LIKE IT, DONT COMPLAIN ABOUT IT, IF YOU LIKE IT WELL GOOD FOR YOU TOO. I HAPPEN TO LOVE THE BAND, THE MAP IS GREAT FOR CTF, DEATHMATCH, AND ROCKET VS. RAIL. WE PLAY IT ALOT AT LAN PARTIES, ITS A GREAT MAP, IF YOU DONT LIKE THE MUSIC, SHUT YOU TRAP AND TURN IT OFF, OR ELSE DONT DOWNLOAD IT. NICE WORK KILTRON, LOVE THE MAP AND THE MUSIC, MAKE SOME MORE WITH MUSIC, ITS COOL.

Octovus - There are only 4 banned people atm (in total, undeaDDisney/Steinecke/Rosebud is one person, well two if Steinecke's daughter posts as well). I'm also thinkiing about a new voting/ranking system where people will have to register to rank a level, this may get around some of the problems.

the levels not to bad but needs different textures kinda boring with just concrete, also the music is gay and Im kinda glad to have here a bit in the level coz I am never gonna buy anything from that crap band

Yup, I got Chronic too, but it wasn't a map. It was just music, a few burned out cars, two kinda cool bots, and a slew of powerups (AND A BFG!)

This is actually a map, and it's good, and I just scored it 10 to raise the average.

Zarathrusta was right to post the comments from Paul, and Kiltron even said "If I need/needed an exploitation license, I have no problem with shelling out the $$$ for it. :)"

But as I said earlier, and as Kiltron mentioned, it's been out a long time now. A lot of the maps I comment on at lvl have been on my HD a while, but not the 2 months or so this one has. I got it from a update on PQ's news page about "the new map Deviant to promote Pitchshifter's new CD..".

If ID was gonna waste their money on attacking people about not having licenses (well I think it would be a waste..I don't know how much these licenses cost but from Paul's comments I don't think it's much) then they would have seen the news on PQ and done it then! Don't tell me they frequent LvL more than PQ if they ever goto either.

At any rate, it's a damn good map as Elvis said, and I'm gonna score it a ten to raise the average (So kill me).

Just wondering Tig..you rewrote ithe banning code, because you tried to ban them but they were still commenting? Or what?

Anywho, if (hopefully) noone else says much, that's all for me here.

"Octovus the great has spoken....

i agree 100%

"You can't sell everything without being sold. But Kiltron didn't sell anything in the first place =P (Octovus)"

I've never been called Octovus the great before ;)

L8rs! Octovus

I've removed a heap of post by undeaDDisney/Steinecke/Rosebud (incase you are wondering where they went) - and re-wrote the banning code so now its a lot tighter :]

I haven't played this map myself but i read the comment to see what you were all crying about. I know who's side I take. I've got the 'Chronic' map made to promote the Marshall Mathers LP which is an OK level but clips of music (mostly from Dr. Dre's 2001) really add to the level. In this case the author was almost certainly payed for creating the level and the Dr. Dre and Eminem models but I still do not have any problem with that. If kiltron is a pitchshifter fan and wants to share that by incorporating it into a Q3A level he should feel free to do so so long as copyrights remain intact. It is up to the players whether they want to play the map in question and if they have a problem with it they should go and make a map up themselves.

forget the ads .

this is a top quality map gameplay never lags and connectivity is ok. isnt that all that us map collectors and map designer wannabe's ask for.

map deserves at least a 8 or 9.

look at the vote score. 5

at damn near 9 MB, cross this one off of my D/L list. Not happening. They can take thier map, thier 5+ MB sound wave, and thier band and shove it right up the....

Best of wishes to you all! :)

Thearrel "Kiltron" McKinney
www.planetquake.com/meanarena

I don't think Paul's statement really applies to this specific example. Unless I'm missing something (quite possible, heh) kiltron wasn't paid to do this. Rather, he did it on his own without any payment made to him by the band or label. If that's the case it shouldn't be looked at any different than the dozens of DOOM wad's that I have that are plastered with textures of the mappers favorite band and midi tracks that immitate their songs.

If I did miss something and Kiltron did this for some kind of contract work, paid for by the band/label, then an exploitation license would be in order.

I'm really not on your side or against you Kiltron. And you certainly don't need to please me. I agree.

But FYI I've got lots of things to do, you know. Like consulting work, spending time with my fiance, oil painting, and building Q3 Maps. But one of the things I also like to do is visit these web sites and participate. I've participated in many threads, although I'm probably not the most prolific one around. So please don't resort to ad hominem generalizations.

Besides, it didn't take me very long to post this stuff here anyway.

But this map has sparked a discussion, and I don't think you can just dismiss it. Would it be more or less "valid" if everyone was only praising your work? And I'm not saying the map is bad. It seems okay to me. But sometimes people do stuff that sparks a controversy or discussion. That's just life and that's just politics.

I was just hoping that the info from id Software would help settle some of the haranguing and guessing that is happening here and introduce a little bit of sanity from the horse's mouth (id Software.)

I guess maybe it didn't work. Oh well.

You guys really make me laugh, honestly! I really don't need to defend myself against any comments just because you don't like the map or the band. Who cares! I'm not looking for a popularity contest, or to be famous. I do what I do, cause I like it. I'm not building a portfolio to please Rosebud or Zarathustra, that's kinda rediculous.

A sell out? Please, that's a good one.

It's a funny thing when everyone on here that's complaining about the music, and why they have to get it are even wasting their time. I'm sure, and it's stated clearly that the map contains a track called "Condescension". Which to me tells me there's a music file. DOH! Then why would you d/l it if that bothers you?

If I wanted to release a normal ctf map just using what id provided in the game, then I would have done so. But I'm more involved with providing new material. You people obviously have nothing better to do than sit around and complain about a few images, and music in a map. Plus this map has been out for quite some time, and if id hasn't said anything about the promotional aspect by now, then that tells me there's no problem with it. If I need/needed an exploitation license, I have no problem with shelling out the $$$ for it. :)

At least I'm productive. And provide the community with material on a regular basis. And if you don't like the material I provide, then don't get it. You're not hurting me in the least bit. :)

Nice map. Nasty Music. Well, the music is good, but why do we have to get it? For my view on music in maps: www.planetquake.com/turkey/music.htm

I'm not going to discuss this anymore. It's just a merchants point of view -not an artists. Maybe there is a cultural gap, maybe, there is a gap between generations. FORGET ABOUT IT!

octovus the great has spoken....

i agree 100%

"You can't sell everything without being sold. But Kiltron didn't sell anything in the first place =P (Octovus)"

I asked Paul Jaquays from id Software about this. This is his opinion, but in no way should it be considered id Software's official legal position:

...There are different kinds of license agreements involving the use of Q3A or maps/content created for use with it. The obvious, high-profile one is the much-vaunted engine license where the licensee pays a bunch of cash to use the game engine for a product. Then there are exploitation licenses, where the licensee is allowed to use Q3A to generate income. An example of this would be a cyber-cafe with a LAN allowing play for pay.

Using a q3map to promote a commerical endeavor, such as a band, probably requires an exploitation license. I don't know, but it would be my guess that the map that featured eminem and Dr. Dre probably was licensed in that way. The cost of the license was probably a small part of the entire promotion.

My take (and not id's official call) is that putting advertising inside a quake 3 level with the intent of using it to promote a commerical endeavor (as opposed to using it to create ambience) is probably a violation of the EULA and should not be done.

I doubt that this is a free speech issue. I may not be totally up to speed on this, but this is not about the right (in the USA) to freely express ideas, but about commercial advertising. There is a vast history of legal precedent in the USA distinguishing and differentiating the two.

-- Paul Jaquays, id Software

Few things:

I guess nunuk knows this by now, or maybe he did already and I didn't see it, but he said "Kiltron just used a music that he liked for one of his levels. It is like if you guys said one day "Hey..I've heard about a group there, I like it very much, you should go listen to it. Here is the adress of their site..."

But as Kiltron said, and as indicated in the readme, he didn't just do it "on his own." All I mean by that is Pitchshifter and..MCA was it? knew about the map and agreed to have it promote their CD. It is true that it was Kiltron's idea however =)

Nitin makes a good point: A map is a map is a map. If you can't ignore those ads, then you either think their music is good or are just sitting around camping with nothing better to do. And this map is fine, as I like CTF, and I'd give it a 7.5 (sorry me have to round down for this one).

But Rosebud won't give up on the idea that he (Kiltron) is selling himself and his talents to these people. He's said about 4 times now that he didn't get any money, so what are you saying he's selling for? A chance to meet the band or something? (I'm not saying whether he did meet them or not I have no idea). I'm sure ID would really think it was worth suing him for that! ( NOT )

That said, the bots are only just playable, you need some buddies for this map as Rosebud (kinda) said. I don't think this should be a trend, but I've only seen two of these music promoting maps so far, and I'm deeply into getting all the custom maps I can. It isn't creative to seel your creativity, but Kiltron did not do that and shouldn't have to be here defending his map. Fyi, I got this map about 2 or 3 months ago (soon after release) from his site, for anyone who cares it's been around the block already.

You can't sell everything without being sold. But Kiltron didn't sell anything in the first place =P

L8rs! Octovus

The idea off selling your creativity is neither great nor creative: it's rather aged and cheap. Botplay on 'Deviant' is not ok. The real point is about stopping this becoming a trend. There is something... 'MTV'. That's the place for listening to music. Maybe my way of thinking 'bout promotion is somehow European... But the more I read on this page, the more I'm proud of this way of thinking. You cannot sell everything without being sold! Don't forget this! This map -anyway- isn't worth all the comments and all the interest. Bye.

I think we are forgetting about the map people. It's pretty good. If you dont like the music turn it down or delete it. Simple solution.

And really the ads arent that distracting to take away from a good map. Like Tigger said it has a good layout or a ctf map and the bots are decent.

keep it up!

ps : i think its ok to mpromote, just next time, make the music file an optional d/l IMO

There is no law being broken as long as the map itself is not being sold and the mapper is not being paid for his work.

I personally don't have a problem with such promotion in a map. Stick a Pepsi banner in it for all I care. The only thing that would matter to me is wether or not it's any good. No one is forcing us to download it after all.

rosebud i understand your point of view. but i still believe that kiltron's idea about a "music map" is a great idea.

the only thing i would regret is the fact that "deviant" was too promotional. maybe too many ads in it....you're right. this is really a problem, and you're right about it.

but the idea remains great and creative.

i also still think that from the moment kiltron did not make any money, it remains a good thing. don't forget that 4 years ago we used to make frags while listening to good 'ol nine inch nails. (yes i know, it is not really the same thing here, but.....).

okay now....nobody wants to make a map with drum'n'bass music in it? it would be great!! hihi

Kiltron wrote:

What's that old saying? "Those that can't become critics" How true it is.

Thanks to an arrangement with a company that I am not at liberty to name, I am recieving 10p every time someone writes/says a variant of this statement. And now I have a ferrari. Hoorah.

Working with the tool 'Radiant' is not working from scratch. If you really don't got money (wich is believable), so Pitchshifter is trying to earn money by raping other peoples work. Or maybe you are raping ID and Pitchshifter? Sometimes, maps can be lttle pieces of art; such a misuse for promotion totally ruins such possibility, anyways. But the most ugly thing: there is no Pitchshifter-bot included :)

To 'nunuk'. Your not allowed to use any texturepack or tool for every purpose! We spoke about breaking laws. I think, all my comments have been map-related.

just a last word:

if i use a texture pack that i did not create myself... will i be criticized for doing so?

lol

what is all this discussion about "promotion"?. when a mapper releases a map, he does this by using a personnal name or a nickname. if the work is good, then he'll have a chance to get known by the community.

nobody's complaining about mappers getting famous, so why complain about musiciens either?

i mean.....where is the f.....g problem?? kiltron just used a music that he liked for one of his levels. it is like if you guys said one day "hey..i've heard about a group there, i like it very much, you should go listen to it. here is the adress of their site...". well..where is the problem for that????? that is what kiltron did. no money involved.

the fact is that kiltron was the first one who was smart enough to do this. and i'm sure other mappers will do the same in the future. i'll probably do.

i'm not really a pitchshifter fan, but i like the idea of supporting any kind of music.

oh ...by the way. rosebud, i know kiltron's work already. you said it was a complete rape.........but.....can you show me yours?

Rosebud,

What's that old saying? "Those that can't become critics" How true it is.

Maybe you should give id a call and complain then. They are well aware of my work. I went to Pitchshifter & MCA Records with the idea, they didn't come to me. And no I was not paid. I do this stuff because it's my passion, and I have self motivation. Being productive really beats sitting around all day commenting about everyones work.

Who's work do I rape? I think I work from scratch, unless you know me better than I do?

i to was disappointd with the Music file but the map is above average CTF. ill take any CTFs that have adequate Bot play.

Kiltron made this good i think.

good work! , .... thats my asskissin for more CTFs!!

In my opinion, ID should take a few steps to stop people who misuse ID-stuff to earn money. Your work, Brother Kiltron, is nothing else, than raping others peoples work! (Ok! I hear your cry: 'I haven't been paid!' I believe in you; if those guys take a look on the effect, they want their money back, anyways.)

The National Rifle Association fights for the right to protect yourself against musicians like the pitchshifters :)

Right on brother! :)

Some people like, some people dislike. I never take this stuff personal. Everyone has a right to their own opinion about everything. It's a part of life. But I'll keep mapping regardless of anything anyone says about my work. :)

Of course, if there were any doubt that this map is promotional, read Kiltron's last post.

It's for fans of Pitchshifter!

(Wherever such may be found.)

If you don't like 'em, don't d/l it!

(But, if you'd like to know more, you can always visit our website at.....)

:)

I can see why they'd try this. Q3A players are headbanging rockers right? Well, maybe some, but not all. And sure, some of these maps get downloaded 1000's of times, right? Well, if its a good map. The large music file in this one will probably generate fewer downloads, actually.

It's pretty tough not to come across as a cheesy opportunist when doing this. My bias is that this sort of thing is a big turn off.

But, a full-blown map was indeed created for this (its not just spam), so there's no need to get hostile toward them. They at least paid the price of admission.

But I would sure hate to see this become a trend. Yuck. Imagine if Tommy Hilfiger started making Q3 maps. Can you imagine? The horror...the horror.

Oh, here's another good one: The National Rifle Association.

The map IS made to promote Pitchshifters new CD for fans. Exactly! Simply if you're not a fan of the band, why would you d/l it anyhow? Well I'm man enough to say nobody's maps are perfect and all maps have flaws, (if that's the reason you play maps is to find them) Just for LVL I'll use your board to promote too. Or is that wrong in your eyes as well. Go buy Pitchshifter's new CD "Deviant!" It rocks! And thanks for the review! :)

www.pitchshifter.com

Kiltron
www.planetquake.com/meanarena

As much as I agree, Quake shouldn't be for advertising, it is an advertising map. It says so in readme, for PitchShifters new CD. And the map is ok anyways. Don't review it if you think it's wrong to have advertisement maps.