Theres a lot of people that would say that no map would come that would be better than Blood Run and Aerowalk; that they would always be the best. On the other hand there are people that believe anythings possible, and if something of such quality comes along that it will overshadow the classics.

What`s your viewpoint? Personally I go with the second statement.

Personally, I go with both statements; There are maps that have such high quality that there wouldn't be another map which will be better than the classic and then there are maps which have a lot of quality but another map has even more quality and is better which eventually overshadows the classic. In my opinion, it's all to do with the designer; The experience of the designer, how much time and work the designer dedicates into a map, knowledge of the designer and planning how the whole map is going to look and play from the very beginning.

I might be wrong but that's just my opinion.

PaN61

I don't think the classics will always be the best. I'll go with you guys on the second statement. Those old classics weren't supposed to become classics, they were built, and they became classics because they were good.

The only downside I see to all of this is that people tend to praise so much those old ones, that they never give anything else a real chance. But that's a whole different discussion...

I think GuitarMan has hinted at the bigger issue, "they never give anything else a real chance" - "They" of course are the serious and hardcore players that know the 'classic' maps backwards and blindfolded. I've seen many server admins try to give custom maps a go but because the players leave the servers once a unknown level comes on, the custom maps are often removed. (This is a generalisation and needs to be taken with a fair amount of salt)

So, the big question is how do we get the good custom maps into the public domain for all see and play?

id Software have done a few great things in the past with community map packs which are free for download and play by all. With Quake Live id Software have also done a 'great thing', but restricting the custom community built levels to 'subscription only', pro maps. I only hope the level authors have been paid for the subscription levels.

These Quake Live maps should really be free for all to play otherwise how on Earth are they ever going to get a chance to be played. I understand that id Software has to make some money somewhere with Quake Live, but from user made maps seems to me like the wrong move in more than one way.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe by having these custom maps limited to the subscription players in fact helps the maps become popular. A number of players playing on these maps will lead to the customs maps being talked about. This in turn will establish a demand and curiosity about the maps that will lead to the custom maps being played more.

The other thing that may happen is id Softwares will move the custom maps into the 'free' section over time when new maps are added. Now that would be a good thing in my opinion.

Wow, what a rant! :]

SyncError said that they may consider slowly moving the Premium maps over to Standard over time if such a task becomes economically feasible.

I also started a thread on esreality.com that talks about appreciating whatever id has given us so far, this is especially directed towards newer maps. www.esreality.com/

Basically, the difference between Blood Run and some other fairly new duel map (like Devilish that I stated) that makes one superior over the other cant exactly be pointed out. Both maps have the same characteristics that define a well-made map, yet Blood Run is supposedly the "better" than the other. So apparently there is some invisible "quality" that I am not sure about. Its like trying to say to a blind man what colors are.

I`m not saying Devilish is better than Blood Run, nor vice versa. Quality-wise I believe they are on the same level. I think this is more of a matter of preference than anything else.

I think that maps are determined "classic" because of a few things:

1. They play well - all the id maps would be classics if they all played as well as each other, for example Q3DM17 (the longest yard) is a classic while Q3DM16 (the bouncy map) isn't. Aerowalk and Blood run are simply examples of how to make maps with "classic" gameplay.

1. The mappers themselves are established as "classic", meaning they know what kind of map to create to achieve this classic gameplay, and people follow their work -so the maps are widely distributed and played = classic

1. They become so engrained in gamers consicousness that other maps seem 'wrong' somhow - when mappers try to do something different the reaction is; "this isn't as fun/good as aerowalk"

1. Lastly, they "are of their time", aerowalk is (probably) the best map for Quake3 (maybe "claustrophobopolis" or "the bad place"), but is it the best map for UT or Halo etc? This depend on whether the hubster spends some time playing these other games and pumping out a classic map for them too... if he did he might remake aerowalk for these platforms and they would (probably) be the best maps for those respective games.

I'm not sure if they will always be classics, presumably the maps come so close to gameplay perfection they will pass the test of time (at least for First Person Perspective shooters) and could be reincarnated many times in the future? With a bit a tweaking - Its clear that straight convertions don't work, and a classic map for CPM is no good for VQ3...

PS a bit of brownosing - the currently featured "out on a limb" by Tig is a classic IMO
Long Live ..::LVL
[musicbynumbers.org]

I seem to have a VERY different outlook from everyone else. I personally enjoy maps based off of real life settings, such as out in deserts, cities, towns, or in space ships...wait... that's science fiction. Oh well. it will be real in the future. (hopefully). Anyways Maps that have creativity, and not the same,old-same,old gothic/hell theme are more interesting. And Maps that bring a single player experience are also always welcome. SP in Quake 3 are the kind of maps I have been scouring for years and am always finding new and exciting SP maps to play. Experimental-type maps are also fun too. What do you think?

heh, I didn't even consider SP maps....