Okay, undeaDDisney,

I just wanted to make clear my thoughts on this, and I think I've said all I need to say at this point.

Thank you for the reply.

You misunderstood me. I'm always giving '0' three times for maps with totally ruined botplay.

The discussion between you and 'Scampie' dealed with an interesting thing. Your map shows, that it is possible to create a map with unlimited beauty and great layout without ruining botplay. In my opinion, a good mapper is creating maps, wich allow botplay. A mediocre or bad mapper is unable to do this. 'Scampies' attitude is so arrogant... -I'm sorry about my ability to find the English epressions to describe my thoughts!

Dutch:

I'm not going to debate your opinion. I'm sure you're right. I was just making a point.

And undeaDDisney:

I really appreciate your support, but you don't have to vote this map down to vote my map up. I guess I don't want to widen the flame war any more. If there was anything worth discussing, it was mostly between me and Scampie (although others have said things to him.) Maybe I should have sent him e-mail instead.

On Spankenstein's Reliquary, Reptilian1 is doing much better in the votes than it is here. In fact, it was in the top 10 the last time I checked. Congratulations Scampie.

Maybe its doing worse here because a few people didn't like what Scampie said, and I guess that's not totally fair. Although, the truth is if people think you are being really unreasonable, politics dictate that there may be backlash.

I'm glad that you and others like "Andronicus" but I think there's room for "Andronicus" and "Reptilian1" to be well-liked by many at the same time.

Have I ever mentioned? I'm still interested in the bots behavior. I gave three times 'zero' for this and three times '10' for 'Andronicus'.

Your debate in this forum though entertaing is also at the same time depressing. At this point the map is at 5.87. This score is about 2 points too low. It is fun and unique. Gameplay / flow is great.DL it now and see for yourself.

Scampie, you want to be reasonable and unreasonable at the same time. You don't want a "pissing match" but then you keep saying things like "huge r_speeds" and 1FPS. What kind of system do you have? The "huge" r_speeds are usually 6,000 to 8,000 with a few spots over 10,000. Yes, that's pushing it, but most think it delivers a lot for that price, and most can play it just fine. Read Tigger's review. I think that is a fair assessment.

Of course, now you want peace and harmony now that were discussing botplay. Yes, I think bots do = gameplay for many people with low end internet connections. You trahed me because my map wasn't suited for the lowest end computers, I can trash you for mercilessly ignoring those poor poor people with slow modems. Shame on you.

This is what I've "learned" from you.

3/10.

A good point Zarathustra. Yes, I trashed you map for huge r_speeds and low framerates. But truth to tell, you map is even worse with the bots. Not becuase they aren't about to navigate it, but becuase you get a quality 1FPS when they enter into the mix. And if I was to play your map online, the mix of lag and low framerates would only mean frustration.

And bots do not = gamplay. They have nothing to do with how a map is played.

But let's not turn this into a pissing contest. We've both stated our opinions and I hope we've both learned from each others.

BTW, I did not vote on this map. I'm not playing that silly game, just making a point.

Scampie, although I agree with you on the bots, I just realized something. You are the one who was totally trashing my map because it is a little more demanding on hardware than average. So, I guess by that standard, since bots affect gameplay even more directly than r_speeds (if the bots can't play it, then you can't play it no matter what the r_speeds) your map deserves a 1/10 for bot behavior that is less than ideal. Right?

Tyre: ratings mean nothing to me. I very much enjoy making maps that are fun to me and some other people find fun. And hell, this map was just a test to learn Q3R and what Q3A could do. I'm sorta suprized that alot of people seem to like it. =)

Bear in mind that there are some parts of the world where not only are net connections poor, but you pay the phone company for every minute you're on line. So there is a substantial part of your audience who are mostly dependent on bot play for the norm. And these folk are going to be rating your maps, so just dismissing them out of hand ain't the best tactic.

On the positive side, some bot play problems can be rectified with the bot ai mod that was referenced in the discussion on some other map here a couple of weeks ago. This doesn't include falling into lava though. To be honest, there are plenty of maps where bots suicide more often than this one.

I agree whole-heartedly with Scampie on the bots thing.

Having made my own level with bots, I can say that it can be incredibly difficult to get the bots to do anything sensible sometimes. What would be obvious to a human player can be totally confusing to a bot. This is especially true if you make something unique in your map. The dependence on bots really limits what you can do with a map.

People should be supporting online play more. Yeah, I know the people who are trying to play from some rural area with a 33.6 modem will start to cry at this point but the world must go on. I want to see more custom maps on servers out there. I know there are tons of servers running, but they should try to rotate at least some of the popular custom maps in.

I don't get it. I like this level. Playing the bots on hardcore and they do ok. So they fall in the lava now and then...good. Playing real peeps is always better , but lets get real not everyone has a cable modem or a good connection. Custom bots on hardcore with a nice mod like Zappy and it is fun city. Good work Scampie . It is a fun level. There are many good levels but the fun factor varies quite a bit.

'bots suck this' 'bots suck that' Go play some humans! I know awhile ago when I released the map, there were a few servers running it in the rotation.

Q3A bots are wank anyway (as most bots are). Sorry but thats the truth. You don't know what a map is like till you've played it against a real person.

Tyre: The second RL is not redundant. Notice that there is only 2 weapons (other then guantlet and machine gun). The explosives are upstairs, where all the close in fighting is. but downstairs is more open, so the LG is provided to encourage people to get in close while fighting. And I wanted to get all players stocked with a good weapon so all can put the beatdown. There's a few spawns right by the 2nd RL which makes it the more acessable weapon to newly spawned (and bots). The other RL is more of the one you go after when you've been in a battle and need a bit more ammo.

Isn't the second RL (next to the MH) a bit redundant? Otherwise, nice map, like the connectivity, but bots suck pretty much. A good strategy (at least against bots) is camping the RA. If your rockets don't hit 'em direct, there's a good chance you'll knock 'em in the lava.

bah, new = nice in the reply to Anon below...

Thank you Auhsan. =)

Anon: I always felt the map had a new feel to it while playing 3 bots. Altho the bots sucked at the gameplay... Something to work on for reptilian2 I guess. =) But thank you for the comments.

ShoveL: yep, the rocks suck. I've learned my lesson since. Here's a pic from reptilian2 ATM. tarot.telefragged....e/reptile25.jpg

Thanks to everyone who's looked at the map and commented.

Gameplay? This is one of the greatest maps that I have seen in gameplay. It just Rocks on 1on1. The Item placement its perfect and you have to explore all the map to get all the weapons/ammo/ and armor.

Well done Scampie!!!

Good map, although I felt that action could be controlled better. I also felt that the map just did not have enough play with 3 bots (the default). Weapons placement was somewhat shoddy.

OVerall, the map was constructed really well. Technically it is fine, its just in gameplay where it kind of falls short

cool map!

the area leading out to the MH & RL; I thought the rocks could have been done a little better at the top where the arch is, the edge where the rocks stop is completly verticle, kinda blows the effect.

the top jump pad, launches you high enough to see over the roof, maybe make the wall a bit higher?

the lava lighting seemed a bit saturated, maybe my vid setup ?

other than that I thought it was alot of fun! :)

A 7 from me

ah... yes, it does look like a big rectangle in the editor . =)

As long as you don't refer to it as 'full-bright box with only railguns and 1 spawn spot' it's ok. =)

Scampie...it would appear to me that this map (good as it is) has been built within a rectangluar box.

That's why I called it a box map.

Big D: Could you explain how this is a box map? I don't see how this compares in any way to a large bursh that has had the CSG hollow command applied to it and released.

Tigger: When I first did the jumppad, I also thought about recessing it a bit into the wall... couldn't get it to work perfectly tho... so whatever. And BTW, lots of space maps have areas easy to fall into, but you can't Rocketjump outta those holes... =)

nitin: I do plan on revisting the map at a later date. See that broken hall leading to blackness? I think I may expand the map into a proper FFA map.

Thanks all for the comments so far.

This must be the best box map so far.

7/10

Can't wait till I get home to play this bad-boy....the screenie looks sweet.

I too request an updated version, as i like to play the bots.

Hey Scampie,

Could you release an updated version fixing the probs Tig noticed, especially the suggestions for botplay improvements?

Cos otherwise this map's a blast!