I remember playing a DooM map just like this once...forgot what it was called.

I like it! I love the room to breathe.

In my opinion "too wide open" can be translated to "need to improve my rail skills". ;)

PI, just keep on keepin' on. You do it right.

BTW, Groundbeef; that makes sense when you put it like that but I suppose it depends a lot on the mapper whether that sort of comment will make them try harder or just give up. In general terms I think some of the final comments may be a bit harsh but if anyone really wants to produce some quality work it shouldn't put them off that much. After all, people always defend the map on the comments board if it is commented on "unfairly". That's just my opinion anyway but I do see where you're coming from now.

Thanks for the (kind of :p) encouragement Octovus but you are missing the point a little. I probably wouldn't notice the sort of problems you are talking about, yes I can say if I had fun or not but if I submitted a review I would like it to be a good review ie. pick out the main pros and cons of the map. My point was I am waiting until I have been involved with the maps/site a bit longer before sticking my name in a prominent place with my opinion under it. This is why I have started looking around the beta section and not the map queue as I get to discuss "problems" with mappers rather than trying to fairly assess a level without really knowing what I'm talking about. I feel this level of involvement will help me become familiar with common problems before I start looking at reviewing. Anyway, getting a bit off topic here :). Hope that clears things up.

hey all.

PI - i wasn't attacking you in anyway, i can only begin to imagine the # of reviews you have to go through. when i make a map, i do try for a style that's different to the standard corridor action you find so often. the challenge for me now is to make them playable & appeal to 'all' types of player, yet still keep the style i've developed.

maybe you would like 'nitra', my entry in the geocomp2, it's a lot smaller scale (still o pen) & might be down your alley. :)

thx beefy. ;)

I'm not saying any reviewer is wrong. I just wish that some reviewers would hold off on the post review remarks....There are some really good maps, or at least half decent ones, that have these type of remarks behind them. I understand there are going to be maps a person doesn't like(heck the base Q3 has some I dislike)but as a reviewer I think it's more proper to try and stay away from the phrases that some reviewers have chosen. I have seen some really ugly comments after a few of the maps, and that can't be good for a map maker(especially a new one)to see. A reviewer can get his/her opinion across without certain remarks is all I am saying. I am not here to degrade anyone, just giving my opinion. :)

That (of those of PI's) should be (or those of PI)

I have had reviews posted, and to be honest I suck big butt at Q3. I have been around the community since it's start in the first q3 files "released", but I was never around before then. But you are kind of contradicting yourself, <SuX0r>, as I guess you realised; you said that "This is the fault of the less competatively orientated players with an interest in custom maps (and not PI, I hasten to add) who don't submit many reviews", but then say you aren't good enough or experienced enough to review! I just play a map, see if I had fun, comment on some "yes or no" things like obvious texture problems or clipping quirks, and try to figure out why I did or didn't like the level - then roll that into 5 sentences and a concluding statement. Which is why I submit like 3 reviews every 2 months...it takes a lot of time and I'm quite careful (one of the turtle mappers thanked me for commenting on each of the maps, which was nice...I like packs like that and am happy to support them).

Um, where was I going? I think disagreeing with reviews is inevitable, and while I will stand up and defend my words (or those of others) if they are facts, no one else's opinion is wrong - but neither is mine. Just because my words (of those of PI's) are the ones on the front page doesn't make them the be all end all :-)

-Octovus

I really don't consider myself to be good enough/experienced enough to post intelligent reviews so I stick to beta testing where my opinion will be useful (hopefully) but will not be given status it doesn't deserve. Otherwise I would have started looking at the map queue already as it is obviously better for you to only review the maps which suit your style/ability better. I will be looking at posting reviews maybe sometime; but I have been playing q3 less than 6 months and whilst I have some skills and have been looking at custom maps for around 4 months I would still prefer to post in the comments if my opinion differs from the review (or if I like the map) as this way my opinion is present but is not the first thing ppl see. I am aware that anyone can review maps on lvl but I am unwilling to claim expertise I don't have by doing so.

When I started reviewing, I largely got to pick the maps I wanted to review, and generally speaking, those were the levels that were easier to handle. As I've gone along, while I have had the opportunity to handle new submissions, the maps I had avoided in the past were still lying around, and eventually my "despised" pile grew too large to ignore; I essentially had to start picking the lesser of the evils. Above all, I will refuse to review "conversions" since I have moral issues with them, and I am unable to install Team Arena to handle another two maps (leaving 5 of the current "not reviewed" maps out of consideration). Of course, there are some maps I know I just can't give a fair review with, and sometimes I try my best, but I inevitably strike a nerve, even though I see myself acting correctly. There are simply q3 sub-cultures I am going to overlook (say the "Thank God it is not another space map or level as wide open as q3terra, so it is okay" group).

I do try to avoid saying "Don't download this" or the like; I may indicate only a few should download the map, but I try keep "don't download" for the maps that are entirely unplayable.

Inevitably, there are maps that I really don't think most people want to play; to those of you who are posting comments indicating how much you like this map, you are the (die-hard)exception to the rule. Remember this for my future reviews. :) There are others that only want to bother with the more interesting levels, including the mildly-competitive players, and I try to help them out as well. I will be harder on maps than other reviewers will typically be, but I think you can recognize this.

I'm not going to be "perfect" with my reviews, but if you want to know if you want to download the map, pay attention to the clues I drop. If wide open spaces aren't a problem, then ignore my complaints about them. If you hate space maps, then don't bother reading my reviews for space maps because you will NEVER like them. I clearly judged this map as an FFA map; even by FFA standards I felt it was below par, but I left room for some positives.

The best thing you guys can do is handle those 12 "not reviewed" maps for me during the week. I can't stand some of them at all. :)

Oh shite, I meant dust run on page 7 (I think). Sorry for going on about this but everybody is complaining about his reviews and people aren't submitting their own and I just find it annoying as he does a lot of work for the site and gets more complaints than praise for doing it. If you don't have time to download every map that is made (or are on a modem) then the reviews are helpful to stop you wasting your time downloading maps you won't like. If people don't say what they think then there is no point in them posting reviews.

I really liked the jump pads outside(was a nice touch). Overall I really enjoy this map. I really don't like the comments behind the review of some of these maps:

"You'll gladly pass this one up..."

"DON"T DOWNLOAD THIS..."

"STAY AWAY!!!"

LMAO....personally Id' like to download every map that is made and give em all a whirl simply because I love seeing what creativity other people come up with....sometimes you get a Liquid Carbon from Charon...and sometimes you'll get less....I like the 3 maps you have done Ed and I think you have good promise my friend. :)

Yeah sure, I can see where you're coming from as the review doesn't really reflect the quality of the map IMO. If you look at the review of "an eye for an eye" on page 5 you will find a comment by PI about his reviews which helps justify why he comments the way he does. The main problem with the reviews is that PI is doing most of them at the moment, if other ppl were submitting reviews a more balanced perspective would be given. This is the fault of the less competatively orientated players with an interest in custom maps (and not PI, I hasten to add) who don't submit many reviews. If more ppl were reviewing then a second review could be posted on any of the maps where there are greatly differing opinions such as in this case. Anyway I'll stop there as this isn't a forum thread. I will check out your other maps tho' as this one was cool. Cya!

suxor- i now see how it was meant in that context, maybe a review should be for ppl that like both types, not just closed.. not sure. i just make them, not review them. ;)

Me,stupid - thanks. my item placement does promote an anti-spam kind of play. if you like this, check out my site and other maps (done 2 since this 1):

<a href="apache.airnet.com....psion.htm" Target="_BLANK">apache.airnet.com.au</a>

-waxx- I agree with you about the ammount of time to move round the level. I didn't find it to be much of a problem getting from one place to another. I believe he's mentioning the scale purely because there is a type of player (much better than me generally :p) who don't like any open maps and it saves them time when they're looking for maps. It's not actually a criticism as such if I've got the meaning right.

I'M not like most players, I like a big map, and because the items are sparce, you better make sure you aim before shooting.

I give it a 9, only because the bots sometimes stop dead in there tracks and just stand.

Keep making them big! :-)

hey, thanks for the kind words guys.

fair enough review.. i only disagree with how he said it takes long to move around the level. there's 3 tele's, 4 jp's and it's open.. but ah well. it's my 1st release, i learned a lot, and i've since developed an 'open' style with all my maps so he'll have to get used to them. ;)

I had a lot of fun in this one in beta--gonna have to check this final vers out.

Oh yeah, isn't spam and rails the point of ffa? :p

Hmmmm, I nearly didn't download this map as earlier today I looked at "fatal fastness" which had nearly the same review (also by PI) and I felt the review was a fairly accurate assesment of the map. In this case however I am very glad that I took the time to look at this map as it plays very well and I found myself moving round the whole level before I'd even learned the layout. The weapon distribution is very good as is the item placement which IMO provides a pretty even spead of power. Bots aren't too nifty but they are only target practice anyway so that's not too much of a problem. The map looks cool as well which is always a bonus :). I had a lot of fun on this map (only beating bots up but I did enjoy it :p)so I'm giving it a 9.

This map is sapcey...but that is not always a bad thing! I am sort of tired of seeing wide spacey maps get shredded as they do. It is just a different style mechanically to adjust too. Sure, granted, the board can become a rail fight, but as I said that is not always a bad thing. I give ed good credit for this map....Not every map has to be tourney style with weapon placements and perfect balances all around. Sometimes it's just fun to get on a good scaled map and go at it.